V4 still Beta?

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M1DNS
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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by M1DNS » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:19 pm


KE7FNS wrote:
M1DNS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:34 pm
Yes, but the wrong conclusion. As a new update to the dashboard was pushed out a day before the post. And continue to be.
Well, lets just take a second and follow the path and see how someone easily arrives at that conclusion though.

The pistar updates happen in the middle of the night for me. I don't have any indication that anything ever succeeded or failed (unless I decide to kick off an update manually). I have no indications that something new was added or what changes were recently made, or even as to why. To the end user there is no real noticeable difference.

Even when I come to the forum to look for update information, that information is completely absent. It should be at least mentioned somewhere, maybe in an announcements/recent updates/whats new area..

Addressing the above reply to my comments...
Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more. ( And I don't mean that as a sign of disrespect. Personally I think both yourself and Torsen do a great job in answering Qs here on the forum, between you, you both seem to handle 98% of the questions asked her. And most all times you both give good balanced, correct answers Image).
But really... you cannot argue that it's reasonable for someone to state the project has been abandoned, there have been no recent movement on the project, failure to produce new updates etc. etc. when that same person doesn't pertain the ability or knowledge to know or recognise when an update occures. It's just fueling more speculation and rumour.
although I will relent and say maybe it is a good thing they at least posted it here, if for nothing more than this thread / conversation with you guys.

Toshen: Pi-Star 4.0.x codeline went through a few release candidates, but never stabilized enough to become a regular release.

It wasn't so much that it didn't stabilise, more that Raspbian Buster became the recommended OS for 3B+ 3A+ pi's.

4.0 was built on raspbian stretch with a kernal hack written by Andy that made it work with the 3B+ 3A+ Buster made that hack irrelevant so work continued there..

and when following on up through pistar releases using different versions of the raspbian OS it isn't a simple pistar-update/ upgrade process Hence the need to reimage between 3.4 4.0 & 4.1
Jessy, Stretch, Buster. So 4.0 became 4.1

General reply comments...

re: flow of info. emmmm, not sure there... with all the distractions of everyday life, it's demand on a persons time, work, family, futhur education etc.
Time spent updating you all of progress made, intention, direction etc. is time stolen from development. I'd sooner work be done in features, updates, bug fixes etc. Then pushing out text about what changes were just made.


Ps. Personal standing.
Ive said it all along and still stick to what I believe. If pistar doesn't work for you, you have other options. ( I realise that isn't what you both are suggesting or saying above, so indulge me) but, if someone needs something more (or something less) go do it.. educate yourself. None of us wake up in the morning with instant knowledge, you learn. Learn to code, the mmdvm project is readily available and installs in practically every OS you need it to run with.
With the ability to learn, you can do what ever you need do to suit your particular use case. If someone needs a taylored install, learn how.

with a project like pistar it caters to everyone, yet no one in particular, the features you want to see aren't the features another wants to see, the time dedicated to a specific something will have no regard to someone who wants something else addressed. 4.1 is beta RC, we believe it's ready to go, but we have users who say it shouldn't be used as they have issues with it. Others reply it runs fine, but those with issue never provide enough info.

It's a two way thing development, a FB post shouting the update broke my repeater holds no info. It works fine when we revert to the old version. Ok but 500 others are using this release with no issue... So what do we do?

When pushed for info or specifics, most times we just get silence, a few specific pictures of the dashboard webpages or' I don't know anything about it, my friend set it up for us and now he's elsewhere... Were all using the same image, were all using the same foundation hardware. What makes yours or the 3 that are being reported as 'broken' different from the others ??? So you take a stab in the dark, an educated guess as to what it might be, sometimes it pays off, other times it just creates another problem.

And of course all this with out mention of changes in OS and it's dependencies, influences of software updates, firmware updates, many times that in itself makes it a rolling ball that ur trying to stay balance atop, making an ongoing progress report / update very difficult to maintain.
and finally we all know if we stated we just pushed an update that now shows the dashboards green bits to show blue, every man and his dog will blame those changes for his changes in BER, or higher packet loss, higher pi temps, broken audio, failure to login, even though nothing that would / could effect that changed. Sometimes there's a thing in providing to much info. Image but joking aside I do understand what ur asking for, just don't know how that can be accomplished without stealing time elsewhere.





Andrew M1DNS, (Mod)















Andrew M1DNS.
Pi-star Admin Team.

KE7FNS
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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by KE7FNS » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:32 am

G8SEZ wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:45 am
Thanks for pointing out the OS updating scripts, I had actually missed this change because Andy has not posted any announcements for the last 2 RCs. I now realise why some of my Pi Zeros have already applied updates when I have not done them manually.

Even the tech savvy have blind spots! :D
It wasn't mentioned anywhere, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't added by Andy, it just was something that was new added in the original Raspbian Lite image. I just happened to have stumbled onto them when I was tracking down the services that were preventing a RPi from returning back to RO mode after the nightly updates.
KE0FHS wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Good point. I've long had a subtle link to Andy Taylor's GitHub repositories at the top of the Playing with Pi-Star article (the dashboard version number is linked to https://github.com/AndyTaylorTweet?tab=repositories), but I just added a more obvious one in the section that discusses Pi-Star Updates.
Toshen, I know for a fact many people would be completely lost without all the information you've contained on that website. I've said this more than once, when I first started messing with this stuff I stumbled onto your website within the first few hours and it answered a ton of the questions I had.

M1DNS wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:19 pm
But really... you cannot argue that it's reasonable for someone to state the project has been abandoned, there have been no recent movement on the project, failure to produce new updates etc. etc. when that same person doesn't pertain the ability or knowledge to know or recognise when an update occures. It's just fueling more speculation and rumour.
although I will relent and say maybe it is a good thing they at least posted it here, if for nothing more than this thread / conversation with you guys.
Well, I am satisfied the conversation is at least being discussed openly.

I don't know how you can disagree, I think its plausible. I just try to look at it from the perspective of someone less technical than myself, and limit the number of steps they would follow to acquire information.

Look at the latest addition to the changelog on the pi-star official website.

Code: Select all

11-Jan-2019 **Version 4.0.0-RC2** - Available at the Beta download location
    OS changed to Raspbian Stretch (from Jesse).
And the latest post in the announcements section.

Code: Select all

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:22 am
If you were to only base your conclusion off of those two places, you can easily conclude that nothing has changed since those dates. And that is quite an amount of time, July 11 was almost 6 months ago. Why is there absolutely no mention of 4.1 at all in the changelogs on the main website? 4.0 was a beta too, so that can't explain why it would be missing. Its the simple things like that, where I think people come up with these rumors that nothing has been updated on their own.

This also drifts into another area I feel adds to a feeling of neglect, and that is developer participation/interaction on the forums, I don't see much of it happening. I think it would look better if people directly involved with the project were much more active on the forums rather than 5 or 6 people who are technical enough to help people out. Heck some of the new posters don't even realize that the people responding to their posts have absolutely nothing to do with the pi-star project, and we are just normal users just like them.

I hope someone can find some free time to at least address some of the things that have been brought up.
All views, comments, posts and opinions shared are entirely my own.

kc7ngc
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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by kc7ngc » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:16 am

Ok, been a lurker on here for awhile as been playing with Pistar for about a year. But as a contributor to 3 dozen or so opensource projects including the Linux kernel I am starting to wonder why this is still even a thread.

There are really only two basic rules for opensource when interacting with developers who take time away from their friends and family to better the community through the contribution of their time and ideas.

Rule #1: Users should report bugs and issues to Developers
Rule #2: Users should not become the issue that bugs Developers

Declaring or insinuating that someones project dead or even starting the rumor without attempting to contact the developer or the community can be enough to get you banned from some projects forums. It generally considered an ignorant statement and considered one of the most offensive thing you can say about a project as its a slander against the development teams time and efforts. If the developer says project is active then out of respect for their efforts it should be the end of the discussion. It shouldn't become a debate about their lack of communication, or participation on the forums, etc. If you use their product, then thank them for their time and efforts and move on.

Most developers will choose putting 1 hour into code vs 1 an hour into docs any day. So often see little status on many projects and their forums. I use private branches all the time when developing code on github so I don't have to deal with users complaining about compile problems on a branch that is not yet a complete thought let alone complete code. So it could be 3 months or more before you seen even a commit on some of my stuff.

If you think community could benefit for more information about what development is going on. Then start a thread, monitor the git repositories and post daily about "Hey, this is the cool thing the developer just pushed out to us today" and thank them for their time. Thinking that developer should sacrifice more of their lives to meet anyone's unmet expectations is unrealistic and somewhat selfish because they are volunteers and we are all freeloaders benefiting from their generosity. As a users of opensource code and projects it is our jobs to support the developers not the other way around. So every question answered by a user is one less thing absorbing the developers precious time. That's how it should be.

Lets all buy developers and whatever support team exists a beer, thank them for their time ........................and kill this thread.

M1DNS
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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by M1DNS » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 am

kc7ngc wrote:Ok, been a lurker on here for awhile as been playing with Pistar for about a year. But as a contributor to 3 dozen or so opensource projects including the Linux kernel I am starting to wonder why this is still even a thread.

There are really only two basic rules for opensource when interacting with developers who take time away from their friends and family to better the community through the contribution of their time and ideas.

Rule #1: Users should report bugs and issues to Developers
Rule #2: Users should not become the issue that bugs Developers

Declaring or insinuating that someones project dead or even starting the rumor without attempting to contact the developer or the community can be enough to get you banned from some projects forums. It generally considered an ignorant statement and considered one of the most offensive thing you can say about a project as its a slander against the development teams time and efforts. If the developer says project is active then out of respect for their efforts it should be the end of the discussion. It shouldn't become a debate about their lack of communication, or participation on the forums, etc. If you use their product, then thank them for their time and efforts and move on.

Most developers will choose putting 1 hour into code vs 1 an hour into docs any day. So often see little status on many projects and their forums. I use private branches all the time when developing code on github so I don't have to deal with users complaining about compile problems on a branch that is not yet a complete thought let alone complete code. So it could be 3 months or more before you seen even a commit on some of my stuff.

If you think community could benefit for more information about what development is going on. Then start a thread, monitor the git repositories and post daily about "Hey, this is the cool thing the developer just pushed out to us today" and thank them for their time. Thinking that developer should sacrifice more of their lives to meet anyone's unmet expectations is unrealistic and somewhat selfish because they are volunteers and we are all freeloaders benefiting from their generosity. As a users of opensource code and projects it is our jobs to support the developers not the other way around. So every question answered by a user is one less thing absorbing the developers precious time. That's how it should be.

Lets all buy developers and whatever support team exists a beer, thank them for their time ........................and kill this thread.
Yep, basically the way I also see it.

One of the reason Andy brought in additional admin/ moderators, Beta testing etc. was so he could use what time he had to continue coding.

bug reports, informative detailed reports/ criticism will never be ignored, But.Time is a very valuable asset, no matter what you are trying to accomplish.

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N6WBL
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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by N6WBL » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:00 pm

Andy is still actively working on Pi-Star. If you'd like to get to know Andy you can listen to a good interview here:

https://lhspodcast.info/2019/09/lhs-epi ... ve-part-1/

And he shows up on the Pi-Star multi-reflector available from all modes, XLX reflectors, BM 31672....:

https://multi-reflector.pistar.uk/

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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by MW0MWZ » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:10 pm

ki4gst wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:28 pm
I’m actually hearing rumors that development of pi-Star has basically stopped. Something about the developers walked away. Let’s hope this is only rumors.
Thats not only laughable but flat out BS :)

Pi-Star work never stops - it might get slow, VERY slow when the work that pays my bills sucks up all my time, but its not something I will give up on easily.

I've had a long standing issue with screen readers for users with limited sight having LOTS of issues with the dashboard / config - I'm currently pushing a LOT of changes to fix those.

3.x is not getting new features - but is getting the same improvements.
4.x is in the same state, no new features but is getting basic life-support.
4.1 is getting the new stuff its still in RC due to a logging issue I just have not had time to patch *yet*
Andy

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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by MW0MWZ » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:18 pm

N6WBL wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:00 pm
Andy is still actively working on Pi-Star. If you'd like to get to know Andy you can listen to a good interview here:

https://lhspodcast.info/2019/09/lhs-epi ... ve-part-1/

And he shows up on the Pi-Star multi-reflector available from all modes, XLX reflectors, BM 31672....:

https://multi-reflector.pistar.uk/
Also also if you want the answer from the horses mouth my e-mail address is splattered on the dashboard page, so you are always welcome to come ask me directly, rather than just wait for me on the reflector etc...

Joking aside if I was to actually have an interest in giving up on the project - I wouldn't be shy about it, sure it drives me insane some times, it often presents me with problems that look close to unsolvable - but thats part of the enjoyment of it.

This is a VERY busy time of year for me, so updates to Pi-Star tend to be slow - and this year has been crazy from end to end so far - I hope 2020 wont be quite this crazy, and I take it on the chin that I need to give you all some kind of roadmap - but honestly I've avoided that because I am so busy and I cant be sure I can stick to it.
Andy

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G8SEZ
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Re: V4 still Beta?

Post by G8SEZ » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:40 pm

Thank you for all your efforts Andy, it is very much appreciated.
--

Brian G8SEZ

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